An enhanced omnidirectional thermo cannon with a nanofac makes most endgame enemies a bit of a snooze too; taking down Ares dreadnoughts is rendered painless. Slowing the production rate or otherwise downgrading the autofac-equipped cannon (as in 3. above) would keep the player on their toes more.

For fixing economy abuse, 4 can be currently done by adding one ammo during <OnFireWeapon> event, and have the device give the speed (-Slow) mod (say, +speed:200, for half speed). In effect, ammo does not count down when fired normally. Misfires from damaged weapon can consume ammo due to <OnFireWeapon> being skipped. However, since the nanofac is an optional expansion-only item, probably need to use magic number (type number for the nanofac) within said OnFireWeapon events within the thermo cannons to make this work. Adding a new mod that eliminates ammo use could be useful here.

As for others...

2 is ineffective. If the cap is just one shell, it may be impractical for combat, but the player can drop shell after shell (resulting in many creates), and after player regenerates enough, loot the crates, sell, then repeat the process over again for more money.

3 seems more complicated than it is worth, and it would introduce few more game statistics.

If fixing economy is not important, then nanofac is otherwise fine. I have no problem with how powerful thermo cannon and nanofac combo is. It is about as balanced or powerful as a level 9 or 10 thermo weapon.

I just did the math, and to make the fuel cost equal to the value of the ammo it generates, it would have to draw 1.05 GW!

70 cr./shell * 3 shells/sec. * 1 sec./60 game-sec. * 100 fuel-units/cr. * 3 MJ/fuel-unit
= 1050 MJ/game-sec. = 1.05 GW

Could also have it process Pteracnium fuel rods into thermo shells, similar to the Luminous launcher. Those are fairly plentiful late game, so it'd definitely be useful, and it'd function within the economy as well.

I think that by the time the player has obtained a thermo cannon shell autofac, an occasional injection of a few thousand free credits does not really break the economy in a meaningful way. If anything it's probably a lot less lucrative than killing a Ranx station's defenders and then hanging out at the stargate and blasting & looting reinforcements as they come through ad infinitum.

That said, stations could refuse to purchase "loose" thermo shells and only purchase thermo shells in ammunition box form.

The gloss on the Thermo Cannon Ammunition box or Thermo Cannon Shell Cartridge could state that restrictions on bulk resale are intended to prevent tampering and sabotage, and possibly hint at the existence of the high-level thermo cannon shell autofac item.

I am inclined to agree with WTDN. If I want to be rich when I can expect to find a nanofac, I either farm Ventari or Ares and/or munch the Teraton fabricator.

However, with the addition of magazines for missiles, the loose shell idea should be relatively easy to implement.

Convert thermo shells to magazines (with max capacity of say... six or less) that cannot be resold if used, similar to those used by Remora weapons in VotG. Have the nanofac produce used magazines with less than full charges.

I still think adding a modifier that takes away ammo use is the best way to go here. It's clean, reusable, and effective.

A modifier would remove the burstiness of the current weapon: you have a reserve of shells that you can fire at full speed and once they are exhausted your fire rate drops a lot and you can either switch to another weapon while they regenerate or bug out for a while and then return to combat. This is interesting and shouldn't be lost. Adding a capacitor like on the lightning turret (without the potential to damage the weapon) would pretty closely simulate this however.

A modifier would remove the burstiness of the current weapon

Test it out - there isn't any burstiness. You can fire pretty much indefinitely. Maybe there should be(or maybe it should just tack on a firerate reduction), but that's not how it currently works. Even a +fast thermo cannon has no real issue firing for the entire duration of any reasonable engagement.

Even if nanofac gave unlimited shells to thermo cannon, it would not be too overpowered (in terms of DPS) given the trouble to get all the pieces together. The only exploit with unlimited shells is selling them, and that is minor given other means of income.

NMS linked this ticket from this forum thread:
https://forums.kronosaur.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8505

There's some good suggestions there for ways to make the nanofac more balanced from a gameplay perspective, if maybe not an economic one. In particular, lowering the maximum number of shells it produces, increasing its power draw, giving it the military tag (so it can't be ordered from Corporate trading posts), and reducing its shell production rate are all easy tweaks that seem worth considering.

For reference, right now a standard thermo cannon fires 6 shots/sec; with a 120-shell reserve that regenerates at 3/sec, you can fire continuously for about 40 seconds before running dry. That's a long time.

I'm inclined to agree with those here that say that by the time they get a nanofac, the free cash aspect is really not very significant. Maybe if you could convert thermo shells into rin it'd be a problem, but you can't.

It might be possible to write a script that massively reduces the value of thermo shells once the nanofac is found. The first time a ship installs it, set a global timer and have it drop their value by 1 every X seconds until they only sell for 1 credit each.

Could also make it unique, and place it in a random Omnithor station.

 FatRatKnight and I were talking about nanofacs on Discord and came up with a possible solution from a completely different angle: Don’t automatically creating x units of ammo every y ticks. Instead, require at least one ammo item be in the hold for the nanofac to work and only generate ammo when the weapon is fired.

@ assumedpseudonym: It is doable (I have done that too). But, if shells do not deplete when weapons are fired, the nanofac probably should give a speed mod to slow down rate of fire, probably +speed:200 or a little faster (because it is a two-slot combo) to roughly halve the rate of fire.

If the nanofac does not have military and can be ordered, then yes, getting one early enough via Corporate Trading Post can be an exploit. For that, adding military should fix that, since military items cannot be ordered.

If we end up going that way, we may as well just add a +unlimitedAmmo trait for ammo weapons, and have the nanofac serve as an enhancer that provides that. That's a more elegant solution.

 The major problem with +unlimitedAmmo is that it doesn’t account for launchers, which can have multiple ammo types. I’d be all over that as a solution otherwise. That, however, would be a separate ticket entirely, since this one’s about the thermo shell nanofac. In the interest of preventing the necessity of such a ticket, I stand by my last post.

 Somewhat related, especially given that it was mentioned in the initial ticket, what would happen to power use with the sort of implementation I recommend? Or what should happen, rather? Making the nanofac use more power is all very well and good, but should it do so when it isn’t actually in use? Would scripting a quick spike of power drain when it creates a new shell be the better option? And, to take that line of thought one step further, should nanofacs just outright be converted into their own specific device type, like a cargo holds and patcher arms, where you can specify all of the nitty-gritty details like that in the XML?

After playing my last game a few days ago, I am reconsidering my thoughts on the thermo nanofac. I managed to acquire one a system or two before Jiang's Star, in a Commonwealth Starton, and I bought it mainly to print money. I had only less than 100k credits at the time, and I had my eye on multiple items that cost more or less 200k credits. While backtracking to clear systems, I sold stacks of 120 thermo shells dozens of times, and the money added up. Since missile stock in shops changes over time, player can sell more missiles to shops. It other words, there is no permanent limit to how many shells that can be sold.

In a future game, if I find a trading post early, may consider ordering a nanofac to start printing money, especially before I buy the Minotaur or other ship that costs around 300k credits, since it does not have a military tag.

For slower, more cautious playstyles, thermo nanofac is an easy money making machine, easier than mining. At the very least, it needs military attribute.

@megas : missile stock in shops changes over time? Very weird, in my experience I sell enough missiles (like a lot of longbow missiles) they never accept missiles again, saying they are not interested.

Unless you sell them to some specific venders (like Fabricators which it seems they reset the whole stock for every specific amount of time.) I don't see most stations reseting stock.

And for the economy, does it even matter? It is very clear that late game progress limitation is coming from availability rather than affordability. You can always grab free fuel from commonwealth military if you gained enough ranks, which I feel it is more broken than selling thermo ammo regarding economy. At least you have to sacrifice device slot for the nanofac.

Ammo stock used to be static in previous releases, but not anymore. Now if you wait long enough, ammo stock seems to change. If you buy out all of a type of common missile, more will restock eventually. If you sell too much of the common stuff until they do not buy more, they will eventually lose some excess stock and you can sell more then. In recent games, I have sold lots of missiles until I could not sell anymore, then leave, return after a while, and I can sell more to that same shop. I sold ammo repeatedly to stores in Rigel, the Arcology in St. K's, and random Black Markets and Startons. Sometimes, I could not sell all of the ammo. No problem - clean out a system or two, backtrack, and they will be ready to buy more missiles from me then.

With the changes to Pilgrim's Aid in 1.9b1, player can get free fuel - and free armor repairs - much sooner than Outer Realm where player can get free stuff from Commonwealth Fleet. Player can get free fuel for nearly the whole game if he knows what to do, and does not need to donate the right magic items (like fuel rods or slave coffins) to do so. In either case (Pilgrim's Aid or Fleet services), you are not printing and gaining money, so it only saves expenses. Player with nanofac who takes his sweet time accumulating power and cleaning out systems or simply getting annoyed with long travel times will gain money from the nanofac if he remembers to visit shops at every opportunity. I did, and I made a huge chunk of change before I set foot in the Outer Realm.

The economy still matters if player can get the nanofac early enough (before he breaks it with thermo shell glut). In my last game, I got the nanofac before Jiang's Star, and my best equipment was only level 7. (I also ignored most of UT, killing only Sung to crash the stock market before buying stocks.) I could sell shells for a while until I had enough money to buy level 9 equipment (weapons, armor, shields). Next game, if I find a trading post early, I am strongly considering burning a trading post order (while my starter still has level 5 or 6 items) to get it early and sell shells until I get enough to buy my 300k or so Minotaur, among other upgrades.

The more I think about it, adding military attribute might not be enough, if places like Adventures Outfitters and Thor's might sell the nanofac. Maybe making it notStandard or even notForSale so that the player can only get it by looting Omnithor might delay acquisition late enough that free money at that point will matter less.

Ideally, the nanofac should not produce shells out of nothing. It should negate ammo consumption of the thermo cannons, and maybe slow the fire rate of the weapons too.

@megas, et al: Another possibility is for the nanofac to make a special kind of ammo that still works with the thermo cannon but cannot be sold (because it is not quality-controlled or even because it is unlicensed).

Or maybe the nanofac doesn't produce excess ammo. It only produces ammo as needed (i.e., when it is fired). Essentially it converts the thermo cannon into an energy weapon (at the cost of a slot).

Yeah, just putting a 100% price discount on the nanofac's output would be a simple and effective patch on the economic impact.

@george moromisato: If you allow us to have primary weapon to have multiple ammo types, the possibilities will be great for modding. (Not sure if this is allowed but it seems only launchers can have multiple ammo types)

Just finished another game. In that game, I ordered the nanofac from the Corporate Trading Post two or three systems after St. K's and sold thermo shells left and right like no tomorrow. With autopilot, it takes eight seconds to regenerate 120 shells, then a few more seconds to sell the stack. Late in the game, when trying to raise about a half million credits to upgrade items (Hyperion and another level 10 device), I bought and installed a second nanofac in the system immediately after Point Juno to produce 120 shell stacks even faster. (I also had Near Stars Connector active, so I could trade credits for any other currency.)

I noticed some things. Shops need to stock a little over a thousand shells before they are not interested in buying anymore. Also, most shops will reset their ammo stock, so even if that limit is reached, it will be reset soon (and resetting ammo was introduced relatively recently) and player can sell more and repeat for infinite money. Black Markets are ideal for this since they pay the most. Teratons do not reset their ammo, so selling shells directly to Teratons for rin has a limit, which yields about 10k rin per station.

As long as there are shops and a source of free fuel, like Sisters with Pilgrim's Aid, player can make unlimited credits. It took me about fifteen minutes to make about 300k to 500k in credits. Furthermore, this is completely risk-free and safe, which is great for risk-averse players who tolerate boredom for a completely safe way for power or the win.

I abused unlimited thermo shells for cash from early Ungoverned Territories to after the destruction of Antarctica. I probably raised somewhere between one million to two million credits from thermo shell sales alone.

I agree with the original post that the thermo nanofactory should be a modifier to the thermo cannon to make it not use ammo. Currently, the thermo cannon with infinite ammo should be at least a tier higher, kind of like if the standard Akan blaster had infinite ammo.

I have a cool concept with this. What if the nanofactory had different qualities? There could be a poor copy with defects. This would be a level 1 thermo nanofactory that would give a penalty of 40% slower firing rate, commonly found on the black market. A level 2 thermo nanofactory is a standardized copy that gives a 20% slower firing rate, made directly by Bushido. A level 3 genuine thermo nanofactory, personally made by Omnithor's genius actually gives a 40% faster firing and can only be found through destroying Omnithor bases or a designed mission.

 The problem with making a +noAmmoUse modifier is when applied to launchers with multiple ammo types. It’s not that I dislike the idea, but implementation is going be be problematic.

 Actually, thinking about it a bit, it does occur to me that something like +noAmmoUse:&itAmmoType; might help deal with the issue. It does still leave an issue with launchers, though. If you have, say, unlimited Stilettos but a hold full of Longbows but no Stilletos, how would you tab to the Stilettos to launch them instead? The obvious answer of making sure you always keep one Stiletto in your hold is inelegant at best.

I have no problem with +noAmmoUse working with only primary weapons for the moment. As for launchers, I have no problem with +noAmmoUse working with all of the ammo if applied for some reason, even if it could be overpowered, like +speed:5 (or x20 faster fireRate) or instant one-hit kill mods like disintegration or shatter for some weapons. (I have considered adding the equivalent of +noAmmoUse for my launcher, along with a massive penalty like +speed:200. It would have been easier than a messy OnFireWeapon event.)

In other words, do not let overpowered applications of +noAmmoUse stop it from being implemented for some of the weapons that can really benefit from it. It is not hard to make some items game-breakingly overpowered with the mods we already have, but we do not apply for hopefully obvious reasons.

Is there any reason why adding a "100% discount" tag to the generated shells wouldn't work? That is, make the shells specifically generated by the nanofac have no sale value. I don't think I've ever seen ammo with a tag on it before, but is that a fundamental limitation of the game or just something that hasn't been done before?

The easiest fix is a 100% discount flag on items. This would have to be on item instances, not on item types. I.e., it's similar to the "damaged" flag. Some items are discounted, but not all.

A +noAmmoUse modifier/enhancement might be more useful in the long-run, however. As @kourtious said, we can combine it with other modifiers/defects for interesting effects. But this is more complicated to implemented. For example, we'd have to deal with existing ammo. Should that be ignored or should we consume it first?

Adding +noAmmoUse to launchers is also tricky. We'd have to add code to always cycle through possible missiles, even if the players doesn't have those missiles. It's not impossible—it's just more work.

I'm leaning towards doing the 100% discount flag short-term, but also add a ticket to implement +noAmmoUse eventually.

I would think that a weapon with +noAmmoUse would do what it says, not consume ammo and behave like a weapon with unlimited ammo - no ammo consumed, and weapon fires even if there is no ammo in the hold (SmartCannon/Akan) or no charges in the weapon (Qianlong).

I suppose launchers could be a problem because the weapon itself is selected when there is no ammo, which does not fire. If player could select ammo and fire them even if he has no ammo, then noAmmoUse would do as it advertises (even if it is likely overpowered).

In 1.9 Beta 3 I fixed this by adding a +noAmmo enhancement. This causes the thermo cannon (or omni thermo) to fire without consuming ammo.